Generational Double Standards

anneneville
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Generational Double Standards Mar 25, 2016 15:22:08 GMT annlouise, missg, and 1 more like this

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Post by anneneville on Mar 25, 2016 15:22:08 GMT

We have heard so much about how Kylo Ren fans will forgive anything since AD is pretty (no matter what our actual opinion on that point is). Yet few consider that the same biases may be working in other directions. I just need to share this here, because I doubt I will get a positive response elsewhere.

Charming, handsome, and glib immoral characters are often forgiven a lot by the GA. By dedicated fans, too.

Perhaps that is why people are so convinced that Han was a good father and fine example for a child, well equipped to teach his boy how to be a functional and well adjusted man. This, despite the fact that Han's backstory indicates that he was a drug mule, cheat, and smuggler who "shot first." Although he may have cleaned up his act for some time, by TFA he was transporting highly dangerous animals for profit, killing most of his crew in the process. He's still being tracked by angry people to whom he owes money. He hasn't grown up, and he hasn't learned. He runs away from his family and his responsibilities when things get hard, or so the film and additional materials have suggested.

But he is a beloved character, so all that is forgotten. Now, the killing of Han Solo, ideal loving father, is a crime that Kylo Ren cannot come back from in the GA's eye. Maybe good hair and a handsome face have affected opinions in both directions.

I still don't understand why patricide is the crime that cannot be forgiven. Kylo's execution of LST and the Jakku villagers, though perhaps "semi-justified" by the military action, was done in a bit of a temper and is of much greater magnitude than killing Han. But Han Solo outweighs dozens of possible men, women, and children.

meadowofashes
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Generational Double Standards Mar 25, 2016 15:46:02 GMT

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Post by meadowofashes on Mar 25, 2016 15:46:02 GMT

All good points. I maintain the simple position that if Anakin "I don't like sand" Skywalker's sin of slaughtering a village of Sand People "even the women and children" in his words and then slaughtering a temple full of younglings can be forgiven and he can appear as a Light Side force ghost at the end of Return of the Jedi simply for finally protecting his own flesh and blood, then the Light wanting Ben Solo back and successfully getting him isn't so hard to fathom.

EDIT: Adding a point here. While yes, he did murder his own father, to my eyes parricide is much less grievous a sin than killing the young and innocent. As of yet, we have no idea if Ben Solo actually killed anyone at Luke's Jedi Academy and if so, if any of those individuals were children. We have not once seen Kylo Ren kill a child or even had a hint of such a thing.

Last Edit: Mar 25, 2016 15:50:21 GMT by meadowofashes

anneneville
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Generational Double Standards Mar 25, 2016 15:54:20 GMT

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Post by anneneville on Mar 25, 2016 15:54:20 GMT

I just don't understand the deification of Han Solo. Even when I watched the OT at 14/15 I identified him as kind of a scuzzy guy--exactly the kind of person you do NOT want as a partner and father of your children. Yes, he is charming and entertaining and handsome, and I can understand why he'd have a lot of chemistry with Leia. But those qualities do not a good person make, and they certainly don't make a good husband or parent.

I'm rather glad that the filmmakers have picked up on his flaws (and I assume Leia's, too, though they seem less huge) and are seeing them through to a logical conclusion.

I actually think that the films bringing Han back down to earth/human status will make people more angry than the fact that the only new legacy Skywalker is "defective."

annlouise
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Generational Double Standards Mar 25, 2016 16:09:02 GMT missg and cienaree like this

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Post by annlouise on Mar 25, 2016 16:09:02 GMT

I don't think it's a generation v generation thing so much as a "old character" v "new character" situation. For OT generation fans like myself, Han isn't a perfect character with some minor faults we ignore. Rather, he's someone I've seen in movies and more importantly, read about in a LO of SW novels. That old timeline may not officially exist anymore; but it's still part of the framework I see Han through and judge his actions by.

To me, a major reason FOR Ben Solo redemption is in the way we are shown Kylo Ren killing Han, and maybe more importantly, what we do not yet know about events leading up to that moment. HF does a very good job delpicting a man dealing with, and trying to make up for, some complicated history with his child.

There are hints of discord between Han, Leia and Ben. We are told that Snoke ( whoever he actually is), has been infiltrating Ben/Kylo's mind. Kylo seems to believe that killing Han will kill that last bit of himself that is still called to the light. TPTB created a sense of mystery around what made Ben Solo into Kylo Ren. That is the mystery I can't wait to see explored, and Rey willbe a major key to unlocking it.

Last Edit: Mar 25, 2016 16:17:38 GMT by annlouise

Kylo Ren is responsible for his actions. No matter the motivations or reasons behind his actions, his actions were not okay. This is true for anyone who makes wrong choices. It doesn't mean redemption is out of the question and it doesn't mean Kylo Ren hasn't been manipulated or hurt. But he is responsible for his actions.-Jakku Sun Aesthetic

meadowofashes
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Generational Double Standards Mar 25, 2016 16:21:12 GMT annlouise and anneneville like this

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Post by meadowofashes on Mar 25, 2016 16:21:12 GMT

Han's a beloved character because he's a dudebro. He is lovable in his own way. He makes the right choices sometimes, like going back to help the Rebels at the end of ANH. But at the end of the day, he's a dudebro. He's the guy who responded to Princess Leia's "I love you" with "I know". He's the guy other guys aspire to be like. Don't get me wrong, at the end of my first viewing of TFA I was rooting for Rey to do Kylo in too, even if I knew it wouldn't happen. Because screw that guy, he killed Han Solo, how dare he? I like how Rey's rage-filled reaction mimics that of the Star Wars community. She wants to kill the "monster" because so do we. But I also realized I was biased when I walked out of the theatre so I chose to put Star Wars down for a couple months before picking up the novelization. I needed a "grieving period" for one of my beloved characters before I could look at things with objective eyes and I knew as much. But read the novel and then watch the film again and it's clear Kylo/Ben is a 3 dimensional character with the capacity for redemption. That's when I became 100% Save Ben Solo and was willing to pick up on Kylo/Rey UST. I think many viewers, especially GA, just won't bother to see their own lack of objectivity because Han Solo is so near and dear to them.

cienaree
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Generational Double Standards Mar 25, 2016 16:30:08 GMT annlouise likes this

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Post by cienaree on Mar 25, 2016 16:30:08 GMT

AnneNeville,I think a lot about how they perceive Han and bis relationship with Leia has to do with the EU clouding some people's judgment.There Han and Leia had a very happy marriage even though two of their children died with one becoming an unredeemable villain.So when they watched the movie they still had their EU googles on and couldn't understand why they had to break Han and Leia up when they didn't do that in the EU.Now I can understand why they would be bitter I'm a Han/Leia fan too and I would see Kylo dying an redeemed monster as an insult to their legacy and love as well as a huge loss of potential of an awesome character because they were afraid to go the risky way.
I think what's even more sad is that they believe the son of their OTP to be an unredeemable villain thus why they wanted so badly Rey to be their child.A lot of them are out for blood because of JJ's comments about Han and Leia having a stormy relationship(and also accused the Reylo shippers about gloating how they were turned into villains).Here are some of the comments I've read so you can get a better idea:
I know what you mean.but what I found even more worrisome is that some Han/Leia fans also think their son's OTp is an unredeemable monster/whiny brat.You have to see what a big deal they've made out of JJ saying Kylo became an easy pray to Snoke because of his parents's problematic marriage.They immediately jumped to the conclusion that the writers made them villains or something.Here are some examples:

YUCK! If Del Rey goes down the route of Han and Leia always having a bad marriage, Han being an absentee father and husband, Leia being a workaholic who ignores her family and Han and Leia being bad parents that led to Ben going to the Dark Side, I'll definitely not read any of the new books and disregard this new canon. :mad:

Did JJ Abrams watch ROTJ or did he turn his VCR off after ANH? It's like he totally ignored both their character arcs over the OT. Han in ANH definitely wouldn't settle down, but the Han of ROTJ absolutely would. He commits to Leia and her cause and takes on an official rank to show her how committed he is. We're supposed to believe that after all he goes through to save his friends and after his friends risk their life to save him, he just goes back to being a wandering rogue and neglects his family? And Leia, what war is she fighting after the Battle of Jakku? The war is over. In ROTJ, when WAY more was at stake, she STILL chose to leave the Rebellion during a dire time to save the love of her life. And now JJ wants us to forget all her character development and think she goes back to putting her cause above Han and her son? That after having her entire world destroyed and her family lost, she would completely ignore her obligations as a mother?

Oh and Han and Leia are to blame for Ben going Dark because of their poor parenting, but somehow Rey who has lived in isolation without a family or any friends since she was 5 turned out perfectly okay and incredibly compassionate? A little selective reality going on here.

Man, I really hope Del Rey doesn't agree with JJ Abrams on destroying Han and Leia's characters :mad:

]a lot of people were still saying that the "profound tragedy" was something else than the Jedi Massacre and that Han left when Leia sent Ben off to train. I'm glad that we know for sure now that it wasn't until the Jedi Massacre.
I thought it was already clear, but I can understand why some people don't trust anything we've been told, or lead to believe. I canceled my pre-orders for Bloodline and Life Debt. I'm not purchasing anymore Star Wars material until I'm sure it's worth my time and money.

i like your stand, im in the same boat until i know luke's fate. But what is it your looking for? and what are you worried about happening that you dont want to read it

This is what I was worried about below:

Abrams also added some backstory saying that Han couldn’t stay in one place and that Leia couldn’t stop fighting. His nature as a rogue and her nature as a freedom fighter clashed. Against that backdrop, Snoke targeted Kylo because of his powers and potential. The implication was that in the absence of solid parenting, Kylo Ren emerged.

Han and Leia fans have been dedicated to the Star Wars franchise and this particular love story for decades. We have purchased comic books, novels, and other products. Destroying their love story and making Han and Leia the villains of this story by having their actions create a screwed up kid, hurts. It hurts a lot. Thinking that Han and Leia clashed all of the time hurts, it hurts a lot. Surely the TPTB could have came up with a story that didn't involve hurting any of their long-term fans.

This renders the 'I love you, I know' scene pointless. This renders Leia coming to Han's rescue and defrosting him from the carbonite pointless. Why take one of cinema's biggest couples and **** all over them? Is this okay with Lucasfilm? Is this what the new canon EU books and comics are going to reflect? Han off on his own adventures while Leia works all of the time, and neither one of them interacting with their one and only child? Are they really wanting to set women's rights back decades by showing how a woman can't hold an important position and be a mother at the same time? Are they really going to imply that it's better to dump some kid off alone in a harsh environment than for a child to be raised by the likes of Han and Leia?

This had BETTER be a misquote or some kind of misunderstanding. I will NOT spend another dime on any Star Wars product unless I'm sure that this isn't the direction that they are taking.

I want romance. I want joint adventures. I want family dynamics. I want my love story back. It doesn't have to be perfect, but it has to be something other than total crap.

I have my PT and OT dvds. I have my fanzines. I have the EU books and comics that I already own. I will go back to those for my Star Wars/Han and Leia fix. Any other Legends EU I want to read will be borrowed or purchased used until I know if it's worth my time and money to buy any of the new canon material.

More JJ quotes on how Han and Leia's dysfunctional marriage turned Ben to the Dark Side: www.ew.com/article/2016/03/14/star-wars-secrets-force-awakens-sxsw-premiere

What a total travesty of turning the two heroes of the OT into villains who were responsible for the next super villain of the ST. It craps all over their character arcs in the OT and their legacy.

Did JJ ever watch ROTJ? They stopped fighting as soon as they got together. The bickering (which was never hurtful, just bantering) was Han's frustration over Leia being in denial of her feelings.

Kathleen Kennedy says Star Wars is for girls now and how feminist Star Wars is, but Leia having a career turned her son to the Dark Side? What a terrible message to send young girls!

And my main problem with this is, we know Han and Leia were married for 20+ years before the massacre happened and they split. So Leia put up with Han being an absentee husband and father who kept abandoning her and her son for over two decades? (I guess now we're supposed to interpret the line I always hated seeing you leave/That's what I did to mean that he left to be a restless spirit during their marriage?) I just can't see the strong, independent Leia of the OT putting up with that. Yes, she loved him beyond everything, but I really do think if he treated her badly and their marriage was that unhappy for THAT long, she would eventually kick him out the door and try to find someone more stable, a "nice guy" to remarry and be a good father to her son. I just don't see her (or him, for that matter) putting up with a dysfunctional, unhappy marriage ala American Beauty for over 2 decades.

missg
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Generational Double Standards Mar 25, 2016 16:56:25 GMT annlouise likes this

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Post by missg on Mar 25, 2016 16:56:25 GMT

Before TFA I would think of myself as more a member of the general audience and I'm a little scared to admit, but I preferred PT and was half/half about OT. I didn't have this deep attachment to the original characters, so the shock about Han's death came from a) it being unexpected b) He is Kylo's father. So although my initial reaction was a negative one, it had nothing to do with Han as a character. I think this is why I so easily accept the idea that Han forgave him, that redemption is very much possible. Many of my friends who are also members of GA think Kylo will come back to the light side too, in fact some of them are sure it's a given. That said I'm still a little worried what is behind the filmmakers reason to make that choice, I mean they knew how fans would take it.

iseeanisland
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Generational Double Standards Mar 25, 2016 17:20:51 GMT annlouise, missg, and 1 more like this

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Post by iseeanisland on Mar 25, 2016 17:20:51 GMT

Like a lot of things Reylo, I wonder how much of the pro-Han/anti-Kylo sentiment comes from people who have only seen TFA once.

Confession: I'm old enough to have seen the last 2/3 of the OT in the theatre. Han Solo was probably my first crush. Only semi-jokingly, I blamed a lot of my bad dating choices in my late teens/early 20's on having been a Star Wars fan as a kid and having Han Solo shape my opinion on what an "ideal man" was.

Going in unspoiled the first time (but just having a gut feeling that at some point Han was going to be killed), I spent most of the movie dreading whatever was going to happen to Han, and when it happened, I cried. I just wanted Rey to kick his ass after that.

It was the second viewing (where I also finally went "OH!" to Reylo) where I was able to concentrate more on character development and the other details of the film. Not being worried about what would happen to Han anymore, that's where I "fell" for Kylo, from a character standpoint.

frared
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Generational Double Standards Mar 25, 2016 18:36:10 GMT missg likes this

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Post by frared on Mar 25, 2016 18:36:10 GMT

i never had a crush on han, i was crushing on vader (sort of, vader is the character that stayed with me from the vague memories i had from watching the OT as a kid). i like the way the film handles the scene. it's a really good scene. like, seriously, best thing that's ever happened in star wars. someone makes themselves utterly vulnerable and it doesn't pay off...

it's radical.

i love it.

i want films that take risks like this.

but anyway, ... i think han's death is where the film is most invested emotionally. like, whatever i think if the character, he gets out there and actually exposes himself. and kylo is all over the place and i love that, too. i understand this is not an abstract thing to people, that they are emotionally invested and i do that, too, but han solo is not a sacred cow and it's ok for characters to die and be killed off and han is the kind of character, i think giving himself to his son like that is utterly wonderful, it's weirdly i think something to be proud of.

but i'm, strange like that.

anyway, my point is, han's death is the one the film invests most in and everyone else... this is why the whole village massacre thing falls so flat on its face to me, yes they are shot and its a briefly shocking moment, but we have 0 emotional investment in the villagers. like, we don't know them at all. LST i think is a notch up from that. he has dialogue and it clearly riles him that he gets recognised and all that.

but it happens very quickly in the dark. with han you're there the whole time and there's no cutting away, no cutesy joke afterwards. it's really bleak.

anneneville
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Generational Double Standards Mar 25, 2016 18:37:51 GMT frared, darthdingleberry, and 1 more like this

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Post by anneneville on Mar 25, 2016 18:37:51 GMT

Heh. I actively disliked Han when I saw the movies at 14ish. I thought he was just the kind of smooth operator that I'd never trust. Now that I'm an adult, I find his and Leia's dialogue quite delightful, but I would not pick him for a husband.

annlouise
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Generational Double Standards Mar 25, 2016 20:24:04 GMT frared and missg like this

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Post by annlouise on Mar 25, 2016 20:24:04 GMT

Mar 25, 2016 18:36:10 GMT frared said:

i like the way the film handles the scene. it's a really good scene. like, seriously, best thing that's ever happened in star wars. someone makes themselves utterly vulnerable and it doesn't pay off...

it's radical.

i love it.

i want films that take risks like this.

but anyway, ... i think han's death is where the film is most invested emotionally. like, whatever i think if the character, he gets out there and actually exposes himself. and kylo is all over the place and i love that, too. i understand this is not an abstract thing to people, that they are emotionally invested and i do that, too, but han solo is not a sacred cow and it's ok for characters to die and be killed off and han is the kind of character, i think giving himself to his son like that is utterly wonderful, it's weirdly i think something to be proud of.

but i'm, strange like that.
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but it happens very quickly in the dark. with han you're there the whole time and there's no cutting away, no cutesy joke afterwards. it's really bleak.

That scene accomplishes two seemingly contradictory things. It depicts Kylo Ren's murder of Han Solo as a tragic murder of a beloved character by a new character we've just recently met, while at the same time making us invested in that new character. Instead of writing him off as a one-dimensional bad guy, I for one was wondering "what is the underlying story behind these two?".

Anybody from a broken family can recognize something is the way Han approaches Kylo. Even though things are horribly messed up, despite all the mistakes he's made as a parent, Han has to try to reach his child. I loved this part of the scene. Han probably knows his chances of actually convincing Kylo/Ben are very low. But he still has to try. So I see him as much more of a parent than an overgrown dudebro at that point.

Kylo Ren is responsible for his actions. No matter the motivations or reasons behind his actions, his actions were not okay. This is true for anyone who makes wrong choices. It doesn't mean redemption is out of the question and it doesn't mean Kylo Ren hasn't been manipulated or hurt. But he is responsible for his actions.-Jakku Sun Aesthetic

Post by anneneville on Mar 25, 2016 15:22:08 GMT

Post by meadowofashes on Mar 25, 2016 15:46:02 GMT

Post by anneneville on Mar 25, 2016 15:54:20 GMT

Post by annlouise on Mar 25, 2016 16:09:02 GMT

Post by meadowofashes on Mar 25, 2016 16:21:12 GMT

Post by cienaree on Mar 25, 2016 16:30:08 GMT

Post by missg on Mar 25, 2016 16:56:25 GMT

Post by iseeanisland on Mar 25, 2016 17:20:51 GMT

Post by frared on Mar 25, 2016 18:36:10 GMT

Post by anneneville on Mar 25, 2016 18:37:51 GMT

Post by annlouise on Mar 25, 2016 20:24:04 GMT

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